View Full Version : Tonto NF - Travel Management Plan - Comment Period
Tonto National Forest, Travel Management Plan trail closures and environmental impact assessment.
The email: http://a123.g.akamai.net/7/123/11558/abc123/forestservic.download.akamai.com/11558/www/nepa/59232_FSPLT2_072203.pdf
Here is information to provide comments via email, internet, phone, and other informaiton including maps.
http://www.fs.fed.us/nepa/fs-usda-pop.php/?project=28967
Their website posting: http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/tonto/news-events/?cid=STELPRDB5346557
"Only those who provide comment or otherwise express interest in the proposed action during the comment period will be eligible to appeal. "
We're kind of late getting this posted here. The comment period ends January 30th. Here's a good post taken from the VJC.
OK! The TRAL meeting was VERY informative, at least in my opinion. A retired ranger was there and he gave us some very helpful insights on how to make meaningful comments on the Travel Management Plan. Keep in mind that he participated in a number of these.
Frist and foremost, the number of comments received is not the deciding factor. The NEPA is not a vote. The way to be most effective is to submit arguments for each trail, with valid reasons to keep it open such as offering unique recreational opportunities – be that historical significance, unique landscapes, or unique OHV opportunities. Also address environmental issues pertaining to watershed, flora and fauna, and landscape damage.
The big one for me was that it is much more effective to submit one set of well thought out arguments and put the organizational name behind it. So we, as the AZVJC should submit a single comment list and put our name behind it. In addition, TRAL is interested in including any comments we make and putting their name on it.
A note on the current comment period ending Jan 30th. The 4 alternatives are not really important at this point, they just show that the NFS has looked at the issue from different user groups perspective. Alternative 2 is the baseline and we should comment from that point on specific trails.
Making the argument that we’ve always run it or we need more trails does nothing, or even works against us. We need to argue using their reasoning or new ones that maybe they didn’t think of.
For the record, TRAL is trying to keep our trails open, so there is some misinformation out there. They are however, working closely with TNF and have helped put up signage enforcing the current Travel Management Plan. This explains the signs out at BJ. There was a specific EA done in the90’s out at BJ to define those trails.
I’m going to take on the task of generating a set of comments and post them here, then you can decide if they should have the VJC name behind them. But I’m going to need help. Specifically, I need good reasons to keep trails open. Specifically, known historical significance of a trail that can be backed up with facts. Comments on unique scenery on a trail. Unique wheeling opportunities. Discussions of how its hard to abuse, like going off trail is made impossible due to narrow canyon walls. Etc.
Here is the list of trails I plan to comment on as these are partially or completely closed (or administrative only) on the baseline and Alternative #2
Reno Pass/Bushnell tanks – proposed to be administrative use only. And that means its closed to us, not a Bulldog type permit system, a special use permit, so basically closed to us. I don’t know much about this trail so I need help for the argument.
Sunflower Mine – this is currently no a loop, but proposed to be one. I just want to support the completion of the loop.
Mud Springs – The trail ends pretty much at the bottom of the first hill/obstacle. From that point on, its admin use only from back in 88
Sandy Beach – This is shown closed, but a recognized route that used to be there. I believe we have a very good argument that this offers a unique challenge to the OHV user with difficulty that is not offered anywhere else in the entire tonto national forest. – I also understand there is a stone house down there, any input on the history would be extremely helpful
The new Hackberry – this one is marked Administrative only for part of it, most likely for power line access. Unique scenery, terrain, paving of the road, Devil’s canyon access and connection to existing routes on STL to complete a through route are all good arguments to make it permanent. I’ll need help with STL routes if anyone has good maps of the area.
Red Creek – I need help on this one. I need info on the history of the airstrip and other things out there. They want to make it administrative use only, so closed to us. I’m sure the big factor is that its riparian, so it’s a hard sell. Help me out.
BJ – from what I have heard, that place is a work in progress. I’ll do my best for comments on the cove to cove crossover, but could use some help.
HERE ARE SOME UNKNOWNS:
MR – is it on the map? Open or Closed? Do we want to even put it on the map? I’ll defer to the hardcore guys for this one.
Pyette – Is it on the map? Open or Closed? Any comments needed.
General comments – going to give some general concerns on why trials are being graded(maintained) with valid reasons not to maintain them.
I’m out of energy for tonight. I’ll try and bet back to it a little tomorrow. I’m willing to set aside some time on Saturday to sit down and discuss good arguments or any other trails I haven’t listed. You need to be knowledgeable about the trails you comment on. This won’t be a venting session as that just wastes time we don’t have at this point.
More info from the VJC post. http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?69011-30-days-to-comment-TNF-TMP-starting-yesterday-Jan-6th-2012
This is my work in progress. Give me some comments and take note of how I am framing the arguments to keep it open. Its pretty much just pouring out of me at the moment. I'll go back later and clean it up. I'm going to remove everything in Italics
Route 3715 as referenced from Page 10 of the Alternative #4 map (MS).
Propose to change the route that is now administrative use only, to open for OHV High Clearance:
Arguments: This section of the route offers technical OHV obstacles for the advanced OHV enthusiast. The type of terrain is not offered on any other route in the current Travel Management Plan. There is a limited number of advanced OHV routes in the proposed travel management plan compared to the number of advanced OHV users.
This route offers unspoiled views of the stacked rock (HooDoo) formations in the area which can only otherwise be viewed from hiking trails that are rated difficult to extreme. This limits access to the views to only those in excellent physical condition, a small part of the forest user group.
This route provides access to the historical cowboy cabin which can only otherwise be accessed from hiking trails that are rated difficult to extreme. This limits access to historical artifacts to only those in excellent physical condition, a small part of the forest user group.
This route can be used to access well used but uninventoried hiking trails in the area. The addition of this OHV route to the user created hiking trails in the area creates new loop hiking opportunities. Other multi use routes such as Willow Springs in the Bullddog Canyon OHV area have shown that OHV use does not adversely affect the hiking experience.
No maintenance of the route would be required as that would detract cfrom the Advance OHV experience. Route maintenance is actually undesirable to advanced OHV users.
The technically difficulty of the route limits the number of users to those interested in practicing advance OHV techniques.
It may be that this route is close to an inventoried roadless area and may be considered for future wilderness designation. Other wilderness areas, perhaps even the majority are bounded by roads. In addition, the Four Peaks Wilderness even has a route extending into the wilderness. Should this route end up near a wilderness boundary it would provide excellent trailhead access.
Current road conditions consist of a high amount of rock and considering the relatively limited number of Advanced OHV users, silting of the watersheds in the area will be limited.
The Large Rocks, high road banks, and difficult terrain make off route travel difficult. This reduced concerns of resource damage from unauthorized OHV routes.
Recommendations:
Gatekeeper
We would recommend developing a ‘Gatekeeper’ at the beginning of this route. This would be an obstacle of sufficient difficulty to limit access to the route to only those with the proper OHV equipment and skill level. A gatekeeper could be installed with the help of volunteers and donations limiting costs to the Forest Service.
Route 3436 as referenced from Page 11 of the Alternative #4 map (SB).
Propose to change route that is now closed, to open for OHV High Clearance:
Arguments: This route offers technical OHV obstacles for the Expert OHV enthusiast. The type of terrain is not offered on any other route in the entire Tonto National Forest. This route provides OHV challenges of the highest level requiring Expert driving techniques and Expert level OHV equipment. The number of expert level OHV enthusiasts has increased exponentially since the last Travel Management Plan and it has become increasingly difficult to find expert level routes to recreate on. This route is truly unique on the Tonto National Forest and is the only one of its level.
Route provides historical landmark access to the stone cabin/homestead in the area.
Limited number of expert users limits damage to watershed and ecosystem. Primary composition of route is sand wash followed by very large boulders. Resource damage will not be a concern. The last section of the route is surrounded by cliffs that removed the possibility of off-route OHV travel.
No maintenance is required, and is actually undesirable to Expert OHV users.
Proximity of designated routes to wilderness areas is common and routes are often used as boundaries to wilderness.
Route 3721 on Page 9 of Alternative 2 & 4 maps – Connection of the Sunflower Mine Loop
Propose to connect the existing routes using 3721 to complete a loop of the area we refer to as Sunflower. This connection creates a loop route of two highly valued OHV High Clearance roads. There are no other loop routes in the Tonto Travel Management Plan that offer the combination of scenery and Advance OHV driving opportunities that this route does.
1904A&B(Montana Mountain Wash)
Propose to maintain the 1904A & B routes as open.
(NEED HELP, any good arguments?)
These routes offer unique Advanced OHV driving opportunities that appeal to the Advanced OHV driver. No other areas in the Montana Mountain vicinity offer Advanced OHV routes.
Routes 3553 to 22 to 542A, on pages 9, 10, 16 &17 of the alternative 2 map.(Bushnell Tanks) (Reno Pass)
Propose to keep this area open to OHV High Clearance instead of making it administrative only.
(Anybody have some history to include?)
Provides Advanced OHV High Clearance driving opportunities on a cross country route. Route completes a loop when combined with on highway routes. Also provides a one way Advanced OHV route that ends in close proximity to Lake Access which is unique in the Tonto Travel Management Plan. When connected with existing trails north of Lake Roosevelt, this route contributes to large, multi-day loop opportunities, otherwise known as expedition travel.
RED CREEK
Propose to keep this area open to OHV High Clearance instead of making it administrative only.
NEEED HELP!!!!
Change of routes 3179 and 3153 on page 28 of the Alternative 4 map from administrative to Open for OHV High Clearance (Hackberry)
These routes are needed to connect to existing routes on State Trust Land that otherwise might not be accessible. ( need maps of routes on STL to help with this one, anyone have USGS quads of the area?) This route provides access to climbing, hiking and scenic viewpoints in and around Devils Canyon which could not otherwise be accessed through motorized travel. The area provides access to and views of unique terrains such as Spires, Stacked Rocks, and other geological formations all of their own unique geological composition.
Creates OHV route with Advanced OHV driving opportunities connecting US 60 and SR177. Establishing a loop when combined with standard roads.
This route provides unique OHV terrain not offered anywhere else in the Tonto National Forest. The terrain consists of slick rock hills that are similar to those seen in Southern, UT.
This route also replaces Advanced OHV driving opportunities that were destroyed when FS315 was graded (against forest user wishes) for mining purposes. It is important to consider that many OHV users recreate on Forest Land to experience a backcountry driving experience. Unmaintained, High Clearance routes provide an experience that graded, unpaved routes do not. Even when traversing similar terrain.
Since large sections of the trail are rocks or solid stone, watershed issues are not a concern. In addition, the route traverses through varied terrain such as narrow canyons and narrow mountain switchbacks. This makes unauthorized routes very unlikely.
Administrative use:
As forest users this designation is a bit nebulous to us as it seems it could range from access only in an emergency to free permit system like the Bulldog Canyon OHV area. And we assume many places in between. As a group we are open to designating certain routes as Administrative use only given that a fair and workable permit system is established.
We are also interested in possible adoption of a trail as way of maintaining access.
General Comment - Trail ‘Maintenance’.
As OHV enthusiasts, we recreate on Forest Land to experience a backcountry driving experience. Unmaintained, High Clearance routes provide an experience that graded, unpaved routes do not. Even when traversing similar terrain. Many times we come across our favorite route and find that it has been graded to a level that any passenger car could travel across it. This in essence has closed the trail for us and removed that recreational opportunity for us. In short, we like the challenge offered by OHV High Clearance (ML2) routes
There are many reasons not to maintain trails. To start, it saves money for the Forest Service. In addition, limiting access to areas reduces the possibility of abuse of that area, decreasing trash. A paved road encourages high speed travel which increases the possibility of accidents and injury. Of special concern are those accidents between larger vehicles and smaller vehicles (i.e. Truck Vs Quad).
We understand that access by passenger car is required for some trailheads or points of interest. We just ask that it be kept to the minimum level so that we may continue to enjoy the OHV experience offered by the routes in the Tonto National Forest.
Comment Responses:
If time should allow, responses to any of the comments or questions in this document would be greatly appreciated. We strive as a community to understand the Travel Management process and appreciate any insight you may have in forming clear concise comments.
One more posting from the VJC.
OK, here is what I have so far. Feed back is welcome, although I have little to no time to incorporate before the 30th. The main thing I'm looking for is weather you want me to submit these comments as representing the AZVJC or just representing my personal opinion. Some don't like to deal with the Public Land Managers and I respect that. If I don't here anything by the 30th, it will get submitted as is. I'll be removing the references to trail names except for sunflower. They are there to help u guys understand my comments without looking at the maps.
These recommendations represent the views and opinions of the Arizona Virtual Jeep Club and its members. Many members contributed to these comments so that we could provide clear and substantive comments on the Tonto National Forest Travel Management Plan.
As a first and most important comment, we would like to ask for an extension of the comment period of no less than 30 days. The review of all the routes and all the alternatives for the nation’s most traveled national forest is a huge undertaking. It simply cannot be accomplished in the time given.
What follows are our comments on individual routes in the travel management plan. Each are referenced by route number and Alternative map page number. We make a recommendation on the route of interest and provide the reasons we believe the change should be made.
Route 3715 as referenced from Page 10 of the Alternative #4 map (MS).
Recommendation:
We propose to change Route 3715 which is now administrative use only, to open for OHV High Clearance (ML2):
Rationale
1. This route offers technical OHV obstacles for the advanced OHV enthusiast. The type of terrain is not offered on any other route in the current Travel Management Plan. There is a limited number of advanced OHV routes in the proposed travel management plan compared to the number of advanced OHV users.
2. This route offers unspoiled views of the stacked rock (HooDoo) formations in the area which can only otherwise be viewed from hiking trails that are rated difficult to extreme. This limits access to the views to only those in excellent physical condition, a small part of the forest user group.
3. This route provides access to the historical cowboy cabin which can only otherwise be accessed from hiking trails that are rated difficult to extreme. This limits access to historical artifacts to only those in excellent physical condition, a small part of the forest user group.
4. This route can be used to access well used but uninventoried hiking trails in the area. The addition of this OHV route to the user created hiking trails in the area creates new loop hiking opportunities. Other multi use routes such as Willow Springs in the Bullddog Canyon OHV area have shown that OHV use does not adversely affect the hiking experience.
5. No maintenance of the route would be required as that would detract from the Advance OHV experience. Route maintenance is actually undesirable to advanced OHV users.
6. The technically difficulty of the route limits the number of users to those interested in practicing advance OHV techniques.
7. It may be that this route is close to an inventoried roadless area and may be considered for future wilderness designation. Other wilderness areas, perhaps even the majority are bounded by roads. In addition, the Four Peaks Wilderness even has a route extending into the wilderness. Should this route end up near a wilderness boundary it would provide excellent trailhead access.
8. Current road conditions consist of a high amount of rock so silting of the watersheds in the area will be limited.
9. The Large Rocks, high road banks, and difficult terrain make off route travel difficult. This reduces concerns of resource damage from unauthorized OHV routes.
Route 3436 as referenced from Page 11 of the Alternative #4 map (SB).
Recommendation:
We propose to change route 3436 which is now closed, to open for OHV High Clearance.
Rationale:
1. This route offers technical OHV obstacles for the Expert OHV enthusiast. The type of terrain is not offered on any other route in the entire Tonto National Forest. This route provides OHV challenges of the highest level requiring Expert driving techniques and Expert level OHV equipment. The number of expert level OHV enthusiasts has increased exponentially since the last Travel Management Plan and it has become increasingly difficult to find Expert level routes to recreate on. This route is truly unique on the Tonto National Forest and is the only one of its kind.
2. The reduced number of Expert users as compared to general recreation seekers limits damage to watershed and ecosystems.
3. The primary composition of the route is sand wash followed by very large boulders. Resource damage will not be a concern.
4. The last section of the route is surrounded by cliffs that remove the possibility of off-route OHV travel.
5. No maintenance is required, and is actually undesirable to Expert OHV users.
6. Proximity of designated routes to wilderness areas is common and routes are often used as boundaries to wilderness.
7. This route provides access to a section of Saguaro Lake that is otherwise only accessible by boat. However it is a high use area for boats. The addition of limited OHV traffic will have no effect beyond that attributable to boat user traffic.
Route 3721 on Page 9 of Alternative 2 & 4 maps – Connection of the Sunflower Mine Loop
Recommendation:
We propose connecting the existing routes using route 3721 to complete a loop of the area we refer to as Sunflower.
Rationale:
1. This connection creates a loop route of two highly valued OHV High Clearance roads. There are no other loop routes in the Tonto Travel Management Plan that offer the combination of scenery and Advance OHV driving opportunities that this route does.
Routes 1904A & B as referenced on Page 19 of the Alternative 2 map (Montana Mountain Wash)
Recommendation:
We propose to maintain unrestricted OHV High Clearance access to routes 1904A &1904B.
Rationale:
1. These routes offer unique Advanced OHV driving opportunities that appeal to the Advanced OHV driver. No other areas in the Montana Mountain vicinity offer Advanced OHV routes.
Routes 3553 to 22 to 542A, on pages 9, 10, 16 &17 of the alternative 2 map. (Bushnell Tanks) (Reno Pass)
Recommendation:
We propose to keep these routes open to OHV High Clearance instead of making it administrative only.
Rationale:
1. Provides Advanced OHV High Clearance driving opportunities connecting two unique areas in the Tonto National Forest.
2. Route completes a loop when combined with on highway routes.
3. Route provides a one way Advanced OHV route that ends in close proximity to Lake Access which is unique in the Tonto Travel Management Plan.
4. When connected with existing trails north of Lake Roosevelt, this route contributes to large, multi-day loop opportunities, otherwise known as expedition travel.
Route 18B as referenced on the Alternative 2 map, pages 3 and 8 (RED CREEK)
Recommendation:
We propose keeping this route open to OHV High Clearance instead of making it administrative only.
Rationale:
1. This route provides access to the historical airstrip and indian ruins that would otherwise be accessible by a long hike.
2. This route provide access to the Verde rive and airstrip which are excellent picnicking and day use areas for families.
Routes 3179 and 3153 on page 28 of the Alternative 4 map
Recommendation:
We propose to change these routes from administrative use only to open for OHV High Clearance (Hackberry)
Rationale:
1. These routes are needed to connect to existing routes on State Trust Land that otherwise might not be accessible.
2. This route provides access to climbing, hiking and scenic viewpoints in and around Devils Canyon which could not otherwise be accessed through motorized travel. The area provides access to and views of unique terrains such as Spires, Stacked Rocks, and other geological formations all of their own unique geological composition.
3. Creates OHV route with Advanced OHV driving opportunities connecting US 60 and SR177, establishing a loop when combined with standard roads.
4. This route provides unique OHV terrain not offered anywhere else in the Tonto National Forest. The terrain consists of slick rock hills that are similar to those seen in Southern, UT.
5. This route also replaces Advanced OHV driving opportunities that were destroyed when FS315 was graded (against forest user wishes) for mining purposes. It is important to consider that many OHV users recreate on Forest Land to experience a backcountry driving experience. Unmaintained, High Clearance routes provide an experience that graded, unpaved routes do not. Even when traversing similar terrain.
6. Since large sections of the trail are rocks or solid stone, watershed issues are not a concern. In addition, the route traverses through varied terrain such as narrow canyons and narrow mountain switchbacks. This makes unauthorized routes very unlikely.
Continuation....
GENERAL COMMENTS
Administrative use:
As forest users, this designation is a bit nebulous to us as it seems it could range from access only in an emergency to free permit system like the Bulldog Canyon OHV area. And we assume many places in between. As a group, we are open to designating certain routes as Administrative use only given that a fair and workable permit system is established. I believe both route 18B and 3436 are good examples. A permit system would limit use and affects on the ecosystem while still offering limited used to responsible OHV users.
We are also interested in possible adoption of a trail as way of maintaining access. Please let us know if there are any opportunities to keep any of the above routes open through adoption. We are available to help with trail maintenance and installation of signs as another way to keep the routes we love, open to access.
Trail ‘Maintenance’.
As OHV enthusiasts, we recreate on Forest Land to experience a backcountry driving experience. Unmaintained, High Clearance routes provide an experience that graded, unpaved routes do not, even when traversing similar terrain. Many times we come across our favorite route and find that it has been graded to a level that any passenger car could travel across. This in essence has closed the route for us and removed that recreational opportunity. In short, we like the challenge offered by OHV High Clearance (ML2) routes and require different levels of those routes to meet our recreation needs
There are many reasons not to maintain trails. To start, it saves money for the Forest Service. In addition, limiting access to areas reduces the possibility of abuse of that area, decreasing trash. A graded road encourages high speed travel which increases the possibility of accidents and injury. Of special concern are those accidents between larger vehicles and smaller vehicles (i.e. Truck Vs Quad).
We understand that access by passenger car is required for some trailheads or points of interest. We just ask that it be kept to the minimum level so that we may continue to enjoy the OHV experience offered by the routes in the Tonto National Forest.
Route Maintenance Level
The forest service seems to only have one maintenance level for OHV High Clearance routes – ML2. In reality there is a wide range of route conditions that fall under the ML2 level and a more detailed system needs to be developed to break those out. An ML2 routed could be anywhere from a rutted dirt road to a route with large rocks or obstacles. In addition, there are many different types of OHV High Clearance uses looking for those different levels depending on driving skill and vehicle type. Please consider expanding your route ratings to give finer detail on the driving experience that each offers. We believe in doing so, the forest service will realize that the Advanced and Expert OHV High Clearance user is not being considered.
Final Comments
In general, the majority of our proposals are met by Alternative 4. We support a combination of Alternatives 2 and 4 as not all unauthorized routes can or should be made permanent. This is reflected in the comments provided by the Arizona Off-Highway Vehicle Coalition, which we also support.
Comment Responses:
If time should allow, responses to any of the comments or questions in this document would be greatly appreciated. We strive as a community to understand the Travel Management process and appreciate any insight you may have in forming clear, concise comments.
Thank you for your consideration.
Brian Martin
Arizona Virtual Jeep Club (AZVJC)
Phone #: *************
Comment period has been extended.
The Tonto National Forest is giving the public another chance to comment on a plan to limit travel on forest roads.
Forest spokeswoman Paige Rockett says the environmental assessment is complex and people wanted more time to review it.
The second comment period started Monday and ends March 15.
The central Arizona forest has proposed limiting motorized travel to about 1,400 acres in the Mesa Ranger District where off-road use already is widespread. Travel off forest roads now is allowed on 700,000 acres in two other ranger districts in the nearly 3 million-acre forest.
The Tonto National Forest is the last of the forests in Arizona and New Mexico to propose a designated system of trails and roads. A federal rule requires officials to largely cut off cross-country travel.
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